Clay Stafford talks with Otto Penzler on “What Truly Sustains a Long-Term Writing Career”

Otto Penzler interviewed by Clay Stafford

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For more than fifty years, Otto Penzler has shaped the landscape of crime, mystery, and suspense. As a publisher, editor, bookstore owner, and champion of the genre, he has worked with and nurtured some of the most enduring voices in our field. From that unique vantage point, Penzler has seen what sustains a writer’s career and what quietly ends it. From The Mysterious Bookshop in New York City, we spoke about longevity, professionalism, and why habits matter as much as talent in the making of a crime writer. “Otto, you’ve seen a lot of writers in the past fifty years come and go. What’s the real difference between a writer who lasts and one who fades after their first success?”

“It’s a good character and a great style. Every now and then, you can do it with an incredible plot, a surprising twist, or with the creation of a kind of suspense that’s difficult to pull off. But most of the writers who have lasted fifty years, writers from the 60s, 70s, and 80s who are still in print and being read, have a style that’s more than simple declarative sentences. There’s color and texture in their language, in their prose.”

“Looking at the professionals, what habits or attitudes do those career writers seem to share from your perspective as an editor and publisher?”

“Most successful writers treat it as a job. They don’t wait for inspiration to go to the typewriter or computer. They go to work every day, writing all the time and reading all the time. Those are indispensable. If you’re waiting for that flash of inspiration, you’re never going to make it. You have to keep at it even if you’re sick, hungover, or too busy. If all of those things are true, you still need regular time for writing.”

“How much of it is habits rather than talent? Obviously, you have to have talent, but is it more about habits?”

“I think it’s dedication to your job, to your career. As an editor, I hold writers in such high esteem. They’re almost god-like to me in the way they create living characters and write about them in a fascinating, unput-downable way. But they have to take it seriously. They have to keep working at it. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you can’t produce a book with some regularity, you’re not going to have success. Waiting five years between books makes it tough for a publisher to promote a writer who seems like a debut every time they publish. Ed McBain/Evan Hunter had a shack built about 100 yards from his house. At nine in the morning, he’d go there and start typing. At twelve, he broke for lunch. At one, he came back. At five, he stopped. If it was mid-sentence, so much the better, because when he came back the next day, he knew exactly how to finish what he left undone.”

“If an author has a very successful first book, how do they top that with the next one?”

“By trying and getting better. The more you write, the better you get. It’s not always true; some people have only one book in them, maybe two, but most veteran writers will say the second book is the hardest because they’ve had years to think about the first. Once it’s out, now they have to do it again under pressure. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they succeed. Look at Michael Connelly. He started out with a successful first book, kept going, and a year later produced another that was probably even better. He’s maintained that level of excellence through more than thirty books. It’s remarkable.”

“He’s done okay for himself,” I smile.

“He has, and he works hard. He’s writing two books a year now. He’s been writing and producing Bosch, plus involvement with The Lincoln Lawyer and another series about his female detective, Renée. He works all the time.”

“Times change quickly, and writing can become dated. How does a writer stay contemporary?”

“Live in the world. Pay attention to other books, movies, television. Talk to people. Be in the real world. Don’t lock yourself in an attic and cut yourself off.”

“You’ve worked with many personalities from your side of the desk. What kind of relationship with an editor or publisher sustains a career rather than making Otto Penzler angry?”

“Be a nice person, write good books, and be a nice person. Then there’s no problem. Very few writers I’ve worked with were absolutely resistant to suggestions. I tend to have a fairly heavy editorial hand, and I’m somewhat opinionated.”

“Are you?” I smile again.

“Yes. I’ll say, ‘Don’t use that word, it’s a cliché, it’s trite. Come up with something better.’ And they’ll say, ‘No, it’s perfect for here.’ I’ll say, ‘No, it’s not.’ Then they’ll say, ‘Okay, let me think about it.’”

“And you’ve got the barrels of ink, right?” giving my reference to the publisher having the power because they have the ink.

“I do, but look: it’s their book. The author’s name is on the book. I’m not a writer; I don’t want to write the book. But I do want it to be as good as it can be. That’s my job as an editor: to make the author’s book better than it started.”

“You’ve had authors become brands. How do you keep them from becoming predictable? Sometimes people say a writer is ‘writing the same book over and over’ and doing well at it.”

“If I were publishing Lee Child—I did publish his last two books—but if I were publishing the Jack Reacher novels and said after twelve, ‘You’re writing the same book,’ I’d be an idiot. Even if the books have structural similarities, readers love them and can’t wait for the next one. I’d be an idiot to mess with that.”

“There’s something about ka-ching, ka-ching that keeps it going, right?”

“Yeah. And using Lee as an example, those books are endlessly fascinating. I don’t care if they’re structurally similar to the previous ten. I liked reading every one of them. Agatha Christie did that for a very long career and remains tremendously popular long after her death.”

“For building a career, and for helping a publisher, is one book a year the sweet spot?”

“I’d say yes, if you can. There are writers with series who work very hard, like Robert Crais. Crais is slower; he’s meticulous with language and making sure everything meshes, so it takes him two years. Michael Connelly can write two in a year, which is tremendous. I don’t know how they do it. But yes, ideally one a year is good. Publishers get continuity; readers know what to expect. In hardcover publishing, when the new hardcover comes out, the previous book can come out in paperback simultaneously.”

“When an author underperforms, how do you advise them to turn the trajectory back up?”

“That’s really hard. Sometimes it’s the same book that’s been successful six or ten or twelve times, and suddenly the readership starts to fall. You watch numbers sink book after book. The only advice at that point is to try something different, create a different character, or write a different kind of book. But that’s tricky because writers find their comfort zone. Telling them, ‘It’s not working anymore, do something different,’ can be difficult because they may not know how.”

“Same advice if the genre goes out of style? Reinvent?”

“If you can. Writing is hard, the hardest thing I can imagine. I’d rather do yard work. If you know how to write one kind of book and someone says, ‘Write a different kind,’ that may not be possible.”

“If you could give one truth about building a career that lasts, aimed at a new writer, what would it be?”

“Assuming your career starts with a single book, make that book the best you can possibly make it. After that, try to do the same thing even better. How do you make it better? Give more information about the character, make the character come to life more fully, and polish your prose. Read each sentence over and over. Read it out loud. I learned that when I used to write The Reasoner Report for Harry Reasoner. When you read out loud, you hear cadence, and you catch repetition; using the same word three times on a page is irritating to a reader. Reading aloud helps you catch that. It seems like a small trick, but it’s not a waste of time.”

Otto Penzler has built a career elevating writers who take the work seriously; writers who show up, improve their craft, and respect the reader’s and editor’s time. His perspective is a reminder that longevity in this field is not an accident. It is built on discipline, style, character, and the willingness to keep getting better long after the first success.

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Clay Stafford is a bestselling writer, filmmaker, and founder of the Killer Nashville International Writers’ Conference, Killer Nashville Magazine, and the Killer Nashville University streaming service. Subscribe to his newsletter at https://claystafford.com/.

Otto Penzler is the proprietor of The Mysterious Bookshop and the president and CEO of Penzler Publishers. He has won a Raven, the Ellery Queen Award, two Edgars, and lifetime achievement awards from Noircon and The Strand Magazine. He has edited more than 80 anthologies and written extensively about mystery fiction. https://penzlerpublishers.com/

Paying it Forward

An Interview with Writer, Editor and Publisher Judy Penz Sheluk By Charlie Kondek

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If the name Judy Penz Sheluk keeps popping up in your reading, that shouldn’t be a surprise. She’s published two series of mystery novels, the Glass Dolphin and the Marketville books, in addition to numerous short stories and articles. Her books on publishing—Finding Your Path to Publication: A Step-by-Step Guide and Self-publishing: The Ins & Outs of Going Indie— are valuable resources for the emerging or experienced writer navigating the ups and downs, about which Penz Sheluk knows a great deal. Based on those experiences, she runs her own label, Superior Shores Press, which has released its fourth anthology of crime and mystery stories, Larceny & Last Chances. The anthology features 22 stories from some of today’s most engaging writers (including me, the author of this interview, who is bursting with gratitude at being in their company). 

Penz Sheluk is a member of Sisters in Crime International, Sisters in Crime – Guppies, Sisters in Crime – Toronto, International Thriller Writers, Inc., the Short Mystery Fiction Society, and Crime Writers of Canada, where she served on the Board of Directors, most recently as Chair (whew!). While putting the finishing touches on Larceny & Last Chances and working to promote it, she took some time to let me pepper her with questions about the new book and her wide range of experiences across her various roles. As always, the advice she can give a writer was ample, as is the excitement over the work. Here’s what she had to say.   

CK: You had a long career in journalism before you started publishing fiction. What got you started on fiction? What keeps you writing it?

JPS: I’ve been writing stories “in my head” since I started walking to and from school as a young kid. Sometimes those stories would be short and take up one leg of the journey (about 20 minutes). Other times I’d keep them going for a few days. I honestly thought everyone did that until I mentioned it to my husband one day after a frustrating traffic-jammed commute. Something like, “Thank heavens I had that story going in my head.” I can still remember the stunned look on his face when he said, “You write stories in your head?” To his credit, he registered me in a 10-week creative writing course as a birthday present. My first publication (in THEMA Literary Journal) was a result of that course. I’ve never looked back. 

CK: You’re a novelist as well as a story writer. Which came first? What’s it like for you, working in both formats? 

JPS: I started with short fiction, but if I have a preference, it’s writing novels. I’m a complete pantser and, while that works well when you have 70,000 words to play with, it becomes problematic when you’re trying to tell a tale in 5,000 words or less. ‘The Last Chance Coalition,’ my story in Larceny & Last Chances (2,500 words) took me about two weeks to write! That’s the equivalent of two or three chapters, and when I’m working on a novel, my goal is a chapter a day. I have tremendous respect for short story writers.

CK: Then there are the anthologies. I don’t need to tell you how excited I am about Larceny & Last Chances. All the stories are so good. What got you into assembling anthologies, and how do you generate the theme for each? 

JPS: I got my start in short stories. I mentioned THEMA earlier, a theme-based literary journal, and that inspired the theme-based anthology idea. But it wasn’t until I had two published mystery stories in 2014 that I really thought, “Hey, I can do this.” When I decided to start Superior Shores Press in 2018 (following the closure of both small presses I’d been published with), I knew I had to give the press some legitimacy. It seemed like a win-win. Pay forward my own success, and establish SSP as the real deal.

As for themes, the first was called The Best Laid Plans (because it really was a risk and I had no idea what I was doing). After that I got into alliteration! Heartbreaks & Half-truths, Moonlight & Misadventure, and now, Larceny & Last Chances. I try not to make the theme too restrictive—e.g. no mention of murder—so that writers can explore their inner muse. 

CK: What are the top two things you look for in an anthology submission? 

JPS: 1) It must meet the theme, but not in an obvious way. Surprise me and you’ll surprise the reader. 2) A great ending. When I’m reading a story, sometimes I’ll be on the fence, and then the end will just blow me away. And so, I’ll reread the story, thinking, “How can I make this better, so I’m not on the fence?” And if the ideas pop at me, rapid fire, I know it’s a yes. Usually it’s stuff like too much backstory, or too many characters. Both are easily corrected if the author is amenable. In my experience, most authors only want to improve their work, and so they are largely receptive to any suggested edits. 

CK: What are reasons you might reject a submission? 

JPS: 1) Sloppy writing, and by that I mean not just missing commas or spelling/grammatical errors, but a lack of attention to detail. 2) For Larceny, I received a few submissions that had clearly been rejected for a recent location-themed anthology. I understand that good stories get rejected for any number of reasons, but as an author, you should make the effort to improve (and change the locale, if need be) before submitting to the next market. 3) The premise is unimaginative. I want you to be on theme, but it can’t be obvious and the ending should surprise or satisfy (and hopefully, both). 4) Werewolves. I really do not get werewolves.

CK:  I’m sure a lot of people ask you about publishing, based on your experiences, your articles, and your books on the topic. What are the most important pieces of advice you find yourself giving people?

JPS: Publishing is a business like any other. Rejection isn’t personal. And while there are exceptions, it’s the big names that will get the big bucks. I remember a writing instructor telling me: “If you want a six-figure publishing deal, become a celebrity. If you want to learn to write well, start with this class.”

CK: Thanks so much for taking the time for this, Judy!

JPS: My pleasure, Charlie. I’ve registered for Killer Nashville (my first time!) and can’t wait to meet Clay Stafford and the many writers and readers who will be attending this year’s conference. 

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Larceny & Last Chances: 22 Stories of Mystery & Suspense

Edited by Judy Penz Sheluk

Publication Date: June 18, 2024

Sometimes it’s about doing the right thing. Sometimes it’s about getting even. Sometimes it’s about taking what you think you deserve. And sometimes, it’s your last, best, hope. Edited by Judy Penz Sheluk and featuring stories by Christina Boufis, John Bukowski, Brenda Chapman, Susan Daly, Wil A. Emerson, Tracy Falenwolfe, Kate Fellowes, Molly Wills Fraser, Gina X. Grant, Karen Grose, Wendy Harrison, Julie Hastrup, Larry M. Keeton, Charlie Kondek, Edward Lodi, Bethany Maines, Gregory Meece, Cate Moyle, Judy Penz Sheluk, KM Rockwood, Kevin R. Tipple, and Robert Weibezahl.

Buy Link: www.books2read.com/larceny